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16:12 ArabianLines.ComForum in Topic over NWR artikel in Engels Journal 2011 zie tekst helemaal onderaan !













Anglo Arab Stallion Grades in GermanyPrinted from: ArabianLines.Com Forum
Topic URL: http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?TOPIC_ID=44794
Printed on: 13 Mar 2011


Topic:




 


Topic author: nn
Subject: Anglo Arab Stallion Grades in Germany
Posted on: 16 Feb 2011 2:51:27 PM
Message:


As most of you know i have gone down the path of grading my AA horses as trakehners.


At the recent grading in Germany an anglo arab stallion graded into the main trakehner stud book.

He was presented with 14 other trakehner stallions and is one of only three that graded.

A brilliant achivment for the breed.

There is a video of him on youtube. Ismahn.

Might enquire about him as a husband for Lady Arabella next year, she is having another go with Fairlyn Gemini this year for the elusive colt

Nicky


Replies:




 


Reply author: BabsR
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 3:22:40 PM
Message:


Thats good news Nicky......considering the German Horses are viewed some of the best in the World....nice to see an Anglo stallion holding his own and beating the majority forward, for grading into their Main Trakehner Stud Book

Not that I am biased...but you simply cannot beat a GOOD ANGLO ARAB as an all round competition horse, whatever the discipline!!!

Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk




 


Reply author: Roseanne
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 3:26:26 PM
Message:


Forgive my ignorance Nicky but would that AA be a 50% purebred? I still can't quite get my head around this Anglo/partbred thingie...

Great achievement for the breed though.




 


Reply author: nn
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 3:42:16 PM
Message:


Hi Roseanne

Not sure on his percentage but i am sure that someone on here will check it out

Anglo arabs dont have to have 50% they just need to be of pure arab and TB blood.

Partbreds have arab and other blood in them.

The trakehners are a closed stud book like the AHS, but they occasionally grade arab, TB or AA blood in to keep the breed elegant and hardy.
Think that helps

Nicky




 


Reply author: Roseanne
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 3:47:53 PM
Message:


Just goes to show, they'll always need to use Arab blood to reinforce strength and beauty!!




 


Reply author: BabsR
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 4:02:04 PM
Message:


Ismahn is sired by Markek a Trekehner and out of an Anglo Arab Mare Inka by Bouquet who is also an Anglo Arab.

Not able to work out the percentage of Pure Arab Blood unless I had his full pedigree details

A very handsome chap....very elegant and certainly bascules well over his jumps

Not sure if he would be acceptable for registry in AHS Anglo Stud Books as his pedigree history contains Shagya Arabian bloodlines which if I remember reading elsewhere, some of which are not 100% Pure Arabian

Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStus.co.uk




 


Reply author: Sabine K
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 4:46:53 PM
Message:


Marek is an Anglo - but he is licenced for Trakehner breeding.

Another top German Anglo - who ist doing well in Sport (including a top 10 placement in the hardest showjumping in the world in hamburg) is Bonaparte AA.
He is licenced at different warmblood associations as well.

Here is a nice Show jumping Video of him


http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?TOPIC_ID=44794


Another German Anglo stallion who just passed his stallion perfomance test and starting a cross country carrier is

Haskar del Chapulin

http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?TOPIC_ID=44794

http://www.vzap.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=311:portrait-haskar&catid=31:aktuelles&Itemid=124

Love,
Sabine





 


Reply author: Lynda
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 5:56:26 PM
Message:


That is great news for the Anglo Arabs.

Just a little query! Are the Anglos in Germany the same as the British Anglos i.e. a cross between Arab and Thoroughbred bloodlines only, with no other bloodlines allowed?




 


Reply author: nn
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 6:02:21 PM
Message:


As far as i am aware the AA in Germany is the same as the AA over here.

However they do seem to have Shagya blood in there pedigree.

So are they AA?

The trakehner rules say they will only grade arab, TB and AA into there closed stud book. But the shagya debate obviously isnt a problem for them!

Nicky




 


Reply author: Sabine K
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 6:08:58 PM
Message:


Shagya blood is allowed as well

Anglos out of Arab and TB crossings are Anglos Section I

The one`s with Shagya Blood are registered as Anglos Section II




 


Reply author: Lynda
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 6:09:43 PM
Message:


The Shagya as a breed is not considered a pure arab - in G.B. they are given 90% at the moment, although in some countries they are given more.

Henry Wynmalen's Basa (Shagya XII-3) was a prime example. When first imported from Hungary, he was registered in G.B. as an Anglo, which some time later was changed and he was registered as a Part-bred Arab.




 


Reply author: Sabine K
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 6:12:35 PM
Message:


Shagya blood is allowed as well

Anglos out of Arab and TB crossings are Anglos Section I

The one`s with Shagya Blood are registered as Anglos Section II

Edit:

And in 3. Generation an Arabian Partbred (Typ German Sporthorse) is allowed as well




 


Reply author: Sabine K
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 6:16:19 PM
Message:


@ Lynda

Yes I know that - learned that in Australia.

As far as I know, Anglos with shagya Blood are only "Purebred Anglos" in Germany, Hungary and Poland.

But in the englisch speeking countries (Australia, England, USA) they will be registered as Partbreds.

That`s why they are separated in Section I and Section II here in Germany.

Section I are the one`s who are "globaly registable as anglos"

As far as I know, France does not Use Shagya Blood either.




 


Reply author: Lynda
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 6:19:44 PM
Message:


So do Germany follow the French in having four sections of Anglos?

Section 1a: Arab and Thorughbred blood only with 25% and over.
Section 1b: Arab and Thoroughbred blood only with under 25%

Section 11a: Arab cross thoroughbred, plus "other" blood allowed in the 4th or 5th generation carrying 25% and over

Section 11b: As section 11a but with less than 25%




 


Reply author: Sabine K
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 6:24:40 PM
Message:


As far as I know, France extended on another section sice last year.

Called "The Anglo-Arab-Parbred"




 


Reply author: Sabine K
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 6:42:08 PM
Message:


@ Lynda

Sorry for my bad English. I can speak it fluenty - but I am not good in writing.

We have two Sections in our German Anglo Studbook.

Section one includes the anglos, who have consistantly TB, Purbreds and Anglos in the pedigree who themselfes are registered in section I in any registration studbook worldwide.
Each percentage should be at least 25 %

Section two allows in 4th generation a maximum of one horse that`s not TB, Purebred, Anglo, Shagya.
Still, 25 % at least of TB or Arab Blood is required.
(Ponys and coldbloodes Horses are now allowed)




 


Reply author: templars
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 6:57:56 PM
Message:


Cracking achievement



He's related to the beautiful and talented Taragun!!!!!! Her maternal grandsire, Ghibli, is his paternal great-great grandsire. And he's got Crabbet lines, going back to Blue Domino!

He's definitely a section II because he has Oldenberg in his pedigree on the dam line, so in the UK he would be a part bred. The Oldenberg lines are Donnerhall and Pik Koenig.




 


Reply author: Jess.And.Tiger
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 7:07:39 PM
Message:


Oh my lord he is STUNNING!!!

I think I'm in love...




 


Reply author: nn
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 7:43:26 PM
Message:


Just found Bonaparte on the web. He is a beautifull grey AA. Fantastic jump and he has been graded Hanovarian and had a licence for trakehners in 2010

Why dont the British warmblood stud books except the AA and PBA stallions like the Germans do i wonder.

Nicky




 


Reply author: Sabine K
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 8:15:18 PM
Message:


@ NN

Do you have a stallion licening test in England ?

Warmblood Stallions have to pass this test.

And if Anglos or Partbreds want the permission for the warmblood breeds, they have to pass this test as well.

We just have a lovely purebred Stallion who coverd more than 30 Warmblood mares here in Germany.
It seems, that warmbloodpeople loose the fear against purebred arabs by using this stallion.

He even won the stallion performance test against all the warmbloods.

http://www.hengsthaltung-kathmann.de/cms/front_content.php?changelang=1&idcat=61




 


Reply author: Sabine K
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 8:17:28 PM
Message:


Sorry, just to make sure that there is no missunderstaning.

This stallion passed its test last year (of course there are few purebreds more who are also allowed for warmblood breedings)




 


Reply author: Sabine K
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 8:19:08 PM
Message:


Edit:

He even won the stallion performance test against all the warmbloods - at his stallion perfomance testing station (not the only one in Germany)




 


Reply author: Sabine K
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 8:21:47 PM
Message:


My computer is driving me nuts today !!! It`s sending my replys to early

Here is the english Version http://www.hengsthaltung-kathmann.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idart=288




 


Reply author: nn
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 9:24:58 PM
Message:


Hi Sabine

To grade into the trakehner stud book in this country the stallions have to be presented for grading at the TBF show. We have one a year.

We have a panel of judges. Two sent by the verband and then three more. Usually two british and one form another country. Last year it was France. This year i think Denmark.

They are assessed as in Germany. In Hand and then loose. They also loose jump. They have to pass a five stage vetting and have a full set of clean x rays. Plus clean CEM and EVA status.

If they are excepted in to the main stud book they have to performance test.If they go to Germany and pass they are licenced by the verband for world wide. If they do the NASTA which is the UK performance test then they are only licenced for this country.

The Nasta test is only run over two days. Ridden, in hand, show jumping, x country, loose jump and rider test and dressage.

I am a director for trakehners uk and we are trying to set up a 30 day performance test in this country. The verband will send there rider and testers. We have a venue willing to host it and two other breed societies happy to send stallions so fingers crossed it might happen late this year or next.

My 5 yr old stallion who has full pink papers but is registered PBA will grade this year. His half brother has just been exported back to Germany to stand at stud. So i am keen to have him graded but not happy to send him to Germany for his performance test as he is very precious.He carries a very important dam line and that is why his brother has gone back to Germany.

My other stallion who is graded premium with the AHS also has full pink papers and his dam is from the famous "K" line.My stallions great grand dam is the dam of kostalany.He missed grading as a trakehner due to an accident. But once i have him competing at advanced dressage he can be graded by the Germans if i so wish.

My anglo arab stallion who is dead (but i have frozen semen from) is the only AA stallion in this country to grade into the main trakehner stud book. He is also the only AA stallion to ever have life grading form the sports horse GB stud book.

I also have one of only two AA mares in this country graded into the main trakehner stud book.

Nicky




 


Reply author: BabsR
Replied on: 16 Feb 2011 10:57:49 PM
Message:


Sabine...many thanks for that information.....and AHS please take note
France last year added a new section to their stud books... would you believe "Part Bred Anglo Arab"

Is that not just what our Anglo Breeders have been trying to get across...(much simpler to understand than Anglo Arab Section 1 and Anglo Arab section 11)

Part Bred Arab and Part Bred Anglo Arab entered into one Stud Book
two parts

Pure Bred Arab and Pure Bred Anglo Arab then having their own individual closed Stud Books......makes more sense and does away with the present confusion with all the section rubbish and their sub divisions

Unfortunately as a dedicated Pure Anglo Breeder and much as I like Ismahn.....would not use him across my Mares as progeny would not be eligible for entry into AHS Anglo Arab Stud Book

Babs
SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk




 


Reply author: weirton
Replied on: 17 Feb 2011 07:51:03 AM
Message:



Just hurriedly read this topic as I'm off out, but (and please correct me if I have misunderstood) as I read Sabine's description of Anglo definitions in Germany etc. there doesn't seem to be a pure Anglo section for our TB/Arab less than 25%. Does this disinherit those in our British Stud Book?

Jean




 


Reply author: Hazel Cornes
Replied on: 17 Feb 2011 10:13:38 AM
Message:


Here's a link to The 2011 Trakehner Stallion Show in Münster-Handorf - Part I -

http://www.trakehners-international.com/handorf_2011.html

Thanks Nicky all very interesting.




 


Reply author: Lynda
Replied on: 17 Feb 2011 11:02:03 AM
Message:


Hi Sabine,

When did the French start the Anglo Arab Part-bred section, and could you possibly explain, or tell us where we can find the information about what is accepted.

With the Anglo section 11 - are "other" bloodlines accepted further back. Can pony be included in the 5th or 6th generation?




 


Reply author: BabsR
Replied on: 17 Feb 2011 11:16:14 AM
Message:


Good question Jean!! At the time our AHS decided to reduce the
percentage Arab blood from 25% to 12.50% for eligibility to register Part Bred Arabs, I for one was VERY against such a move!! Think the reduction was approved in the interest of racing, which means that our Part Bred Arabs have since had to be recorded as PBA.1 or PBA.11
PBA.1 have to be DNA parentage tested before they can be raced

With regard to registration, Anglo Arab eligibility can be 99% Pure Arab and even 99% Thoroughbred and any other percentage cross providing only registered Arab and registered TB blood.

Under German requirement, it appears a minimum of 25% Arab blood is required for Anglos to be registered in their German Anglo Arab Stud Books...which as you ask Jean does this fact disinherit Anglos below 25% Arab Blood in German AA Stud Books?? Stupid ruling really, A Pure Arab is a Pure Arab and a Pure Anglo is also, just that!!!

Nicky....Vote you Representative, as you have already proven your bloodlines as acceptable into the main Trakehner Stud Book. Definitely think you should get on the case and ask the British Warmblood Society to consider acceptance of our Pure Bred/Anglo/Part Bred Arabs (subject to their qualification and testing/grading standards)into their stud books....the inclusion of same can only benefit British bred Warmbloods as we all know.... an infusion of Arab Blood will be to advantage in many ways

Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk




 


Reply author: templars
Replied on: 17 Feb 2011 12:45:37 PM
Message:


Tongue in cheek ......

Presumably Anglos of any colour would be acceptable if graded???




 


Reply author: nn
Replied on: 17 Feb 2011 1:15:11 PM
Message:


Templars : Have you looked at the video of Bonaparte? Very smart "Grey" AA with a fantastic jump. Graded Hanovarian!

I love a grey horse

Babs: I have Ranger registered BWB when i asked about grading him with them they said he would need to be more modern looking. Lennon the 5yr old is VERY modern so perhaps if he grades trakehner i will grade him BWB.

Interestingly the westphalian society wanted to except Doug's filly by Ranger and my filly Dolly into there main stud book.
So we will take this years foal and have it branded, graded and registered westphalian. If its a colt that will put the cat among the pigeons as i don't think they realised they are PBA as Ranger is branded and pink papered trakehner

Nicky




 


Reply author: BabsR
Replied on: 17 Feb 2011 2:15:47 PM
Message:


Nicky.....I take it by BWB saying Ranger needed to look more "modern"
do they mean.....more refined...more TB type??

Certainly looking at the young Warmblood stallions being advertised, quite a good number look more TB type than their predecessors who were thicker set in conformation and bone

Modern competition horses certainly do need to be much more athletic and supple, as Eventing/Dressage/Show Jumping gets evermore technical for both horse and rider

Not so many of the more traditional type of Warmblood breed would stand up to the test of galloping 3/4 miles over the big Grand National Fences as do Thoroughbreds??...Adding stamina and hardness of bone with the look at me expression of paces the Arabian blood injects....can only improve the Warmbloods for the better!! Just my opinion but nice to see German Trakehner Main Stud Book is approving Arab/Anglo Arab stallions into their Closed Stud book

Nice also personally for us, to be privileged to have a small input, through our bloodlines. Nickys Trakehner Registered Anglo Mare, Brox Lady Arabella is "Sunray" bred on her Dam`s side. Her Dam being Wrenthorpe Reminiscence by Sunray Scelebrity and Grand-dam Sunray Sapphire out of BNC & Premium Mare Sunray Seranata(Scindian Overlord by Scindian Magic)

Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk








 


Reply author: nn
Replied on: 17 Feb 2011 3:27:15 PM
Message:


Babs: Yes thats right. They want long legged elegant TB types and Ranger has a big front, deep body and timber to stand on.




 


Reply author: templars
Replied on: 18 Feb 2011 08:06:07 AM
Message:


Isn't it interesting how views change.

When we started eventing, I was dead set against warmbloods and didn't think they were suitable at all for the sport. They certainly have the movement and the jumping scope to do exceptionally well. Their main failing was the speed required cross country. They could produce clear rounds show jumping and cross country but there was always the fear they wouldn't be fast enough.

The change in format of eventing from the long format (requiring roads and tracks - a test of stamina and consistency, and steeplechase - a test of speed and agility, followed by the cross country) to the short format (just the cross country) was a move in favour of the warmbloods.

I have been, and always will be a devotee of Arabian breeding and it is a personal dream to see a British bred pure Anglo competing (possibly even being placed) at a major 4* event and being considered for Team GB.

But as time has gone on, my dreams have also altered slightly and whilst we will campaign the purer form of Arabian blood, my key message now is to spread the word (as Nicky does) that the Arabian blood has a vital and significant role to play in breeding performance horses.

There is no denying that the warmbloods are a talented group of breeds and their contribution to a performance horse cannot be denied. They bring a roundness of movement, and a scope of jumping ability that is recognised and valued. Imagine that coupled with Arabian blood - roundness with cadence, jumping ability with agility, scope with brains.

As I've said, we will not diverge from our dreams and we will stick to the high influx of Arabian blood. But just as I would be ecstatic to realise the dreams for a pure Anglo, of equal importance are the dreams of having the rest of the performance world accept and seek out Arabian breeding from a well bred pure, part or Anglo. Longer legs worry me - we can add density of bone and shorter cannons.

The warmbloods have their role - it's to provide the larger frame for our superb bloodlines.

What we desperately need now is for our colts and stallions to get out there and prove their worth in the performance world - irrespective of colour, irresepecive of whether it's pure, part or Anglo. Our magnificent breed brings a unique contribution to the production of a performance horse and we should celebrate that and encourage it's adoption throughout the performance world.




 


Reply author: Avonbrook
Replied on: 18 Feb 2011 08:29:42 AM
Message:


Totally agree Templars . This is a real good news thread. I think that the tide is turning as regards the inclusion of arabian blood - for the originally declared purpose of adding stamina and soundness! - to the modern sports horse. Both of the big stallion parades to date this year had proven performance horses of arabian breeding representing the breed. I didn't get to Hartpury due to prior commitments but noticed that both Persiflage and Yawl Hillbilly attracted postive comments from the wider horse community. Marcus was able to have 2 of his part bred progeny in with him at Stallion Showcase GB at Addington - which generated a lot of interest from breeders who hadn't realised that a 50% arabian can still be over 16.2hh and clearly an athlete. It was great that the stables there were open so that people could come and take a proper look at them stood up and moved in hand after their arena appearance. I found the reaction, both on the day and subsequently to be very positive.

The interest is there and the NaStA performance test provides the ticket

Rowena




 


Reply author: weirton
Replied on: 18 Feb 2011 10:12:09 AM
Message:



Templars,

Have to agree with all you say. Is this colour thing becoming an obsession? Horses for courses I say spotted, stripes whatever as long as they do the job well. The changing stamp of eventers is only the same as the optimum stamp of hunter always depended on the country it was hunting over. Nothing new there.

It maybe as well to remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what is more beautiful than a horse soaring over a big fence in a good shape? Also note that some of the best performers have the most atrocious conformation whilst some of the most correctly made ones can't jump a stick.

Striving for perfection is always good as long as you don't realistically expect to find it. Meanwhile I'll stick to enjoying the beauty classes in which I like the bays and maybe a grey or two (anything more exciting may be too much for me) Ha!

Jean




 


Reply author: BabsR
Replied on: 18 Feb 2011 10:31:53 AM
Message:


"What we desperately need now is for our colts and stallions to get out there and prove their worth in the performance world - irrespective of colour, irresepecive of whether it's pure, part or Anglo. Our magnificent breed brings a unique contribution to the production of a performance horse and we should celebrate that and encourage it's adoption throughout the performance world".......posted by Templars

Racheal......It is happening!! Agree with all you say and with your Daughter Evie and Nicky`s Daughter Amy, both out there successfully performing on Horses with Arabian bloodlines of your breeding, the future looks good!! British Performance horse owners are also finally beginning to appreciate the benefits of Arabian influx into our British Warmbloods.

It is my belief that the next few decades will see a big shift and the British Warmblood Performance horse containing Arabian Blood will be very much in demand, without the need to buy continental horses.

Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk




 


Reply author: weirton
Replied on: 18 Feb 2011 10:45:34 AM
Message:



Let's hope you're right Babs.

Jean




 


Reply author: Hazel Cornes
Replied on: 18 Feb 2011 10:56:09 AM
Message:


Interestingly the Sports Ponies have been using Arab & AA for decades. In this year’s WPCS Green Journal there is an article entitled “Typical Dutch: The Dutch Welsh Riding Pony (NWR)” by Willem van Klaarbergen and Anja Rozema. In this article it states they started (approx 50 yrs ago) with a breeding policy of the WPCS with their own supplementary regulations meaning that only crossbreeding Arabian, Anglo-Arabian & Thoroughbred is allowed.

They go on to say that they started with Welsh A, B & D, in the 1970’s they imported WPBR (Welsh Part Bred) Oakley, Keston, Small-Land & Downland but still needed more height.

“And to increase the height of the ponies we started cross breeding the riding ponies with several Arabians like for instance Naivnyi ox (Arax x Norka), Hamad (The Chief x Tehoura), Saoud (Houbaran x Alsita), El Khafif (Almanza x Mantella), Patron (Aswan x Podruga), El Bedavi,El Malaak (Naplyv x Zebraa). Result of this crossbreeding were ponies with an average height of 1.36m, beautiful ponies with lovely heads but too much an Arabian and still they were not the type of riding pony we were looking for.
So the next step in the development of the Dutch Welsh Riding Pony was crossbreeding with Anglo Arabians and Thoroughbreds.”

These gave them the height but then they were very selective in their breeding and used ponies which had “true pony” characteristics to further their breeding.

They have a stallion show in February where they choose the best stallions for breeding.

“Commonly about 45 to 50 NWR ponies compete for the approval and around 5 to 7 stallions are selected for the performance test. During this performance test which lasts 32 days, new NWR stallions will be tested on attitude, movement and talent as a riding pony in either dressage or jumping classes. Of course their pedigree is checked by DNA and they have to be sound, healthy and fertile.”
 



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